HomeMy WebLinkAbout1975-02-10 Committee of the Whole MinutesFebruary 10, 1975
7:30 P.M.
CALL TO ORDER
ROLL CALL OF
COUNCIL MEMBERS
DISCUSSION
Minute Approval
EXECUTIVE SESSION
7:45 P.M. 8:05 P.M.
/o y ,Z
TUKWILA CITY COUNCIL Tukwila City Hall
COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MEETING Council Chambers
MINUTES
Council President Traynor called the Committee of the
Whole Meeting to order.
GARDNER, STERLING, TRAYNOR, DAVIS, HARRIS, SAUL
MOVED BY STERLING, SECONDED BY SAUL, THAT THE MINUTES OF
THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MEETING OF JANUARY 27, 1975 BE
APPROVED AS PUBLISHED. Mr. Todd, from audience, stated
that the minutes insinuated that he spoke from the Table
for a rezone request he had made earlier. He stated these
minutes were approved by a 7 0 vote by the City Council.
Councilman Sterling asked Mr. Todd if he was at the Planning
Commission meeting when this matter was discussed. Mr.
Todd stated that he was and that he had spoken from the
floor. He stated he also spoke at the Council Meeting from
the floor but the Minutes indicate he spoke from the Table.
Council President Traynor asked Mr. Todd if he was speaking
of the Committee of the Whole Meeting or the City Council
Meeting. Mr. Todd stated that it is mentioned in the City
Council Minutes and the Committee of the Whole Meeting
Minutes that he had spoken from the Council Table for his
rezone request and that information is incorrect. Council-
woman Harris stated that the tapes of those meetings would
reflect that was said. She stated that she distinctly
remembered that the matter was introduced while the Mayor
was still presiding at the Table and then he spoke from the
audience when it was moved that the rezone request be
placed in committee. Mr. Todd stated that the Minutes of
the Regular Council Meeting accurately reflect what
happened. He stated that the matter of rezone was actually
introduced while Mayor Pro Tem was presiding and he,
Mr. Todd, was actually sitting out in the audience. He
stated these Minutes have been approved by a vote of 7 0
by the City Council, and they are true and do
reflect the context of what happened. Council President
Traynor asked if Mayor Todd was referring to the January 27,
1975 Committee of the Whole Meeting Minutes. Councilman
Sterling stated that he recalled Mayor Todd left the Council
Table and he suggested that research be made to see if he
was from the Table at the time. Councilwoman Davis
suggested that research be made and the Minutes of the
Committee of the Whole Meeting held January 27, 1975 be
approved at the next Committee of the Whole Meeting.
*FAITFD.
MOVED BY STERLING, SECONDED BY SAUL, THAT THE MINUTES OF
THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOT,F MEETING (AGENDA) OF JANUARY 30,
1975 BE APPROVED AS PUBLISHED. Council President Traynor
stated since there were only two members of the City Council
present at this meeting, it did not constitute a quorum
and therefore the minutes were not subject to approval.
THE MOTION AND SECOND WERE WITHDRAWN.
MOVED BY HARRIS, SECONDED BY SAUL, TO HOLD EXECUTIVE SESSION
WITH COUNCIL ATTORNEY LARRY HARD. CARRIED. Council
President Traynor called the meeting back to order with
all Council Members present as previously listed.
All comments regarding the Executive Session for employee
grievance are attached in the form of ver batim transcript
provided by Diane Attleson, Court Reporter.
Councilwoman Davis asked to be excused from the meeting
at 8:58 P.M. and before leaving she asked that the minutes
reflect the fact that the cost of the court reporter
should come out of the clerk's funds and not from City
Council funds.
TUKWILA CITY COUNCIL COMMITTEE OF THE WHOTF, MEETING
February 10, 1975
Page 2
DISCUSSION Contd.
Life insurance
benefit
ADJOURNMENT
9:00 P.M.
Council President Traynor stated that the City Council
would like to have this item appear on the agenda for the
next City Council Meeting.
MOVED BY STERLING, SECONDED BY SAUL, THAT THE COMMITTEE
OF THE WHOLE MEETING ADJOURN. CARRIED.
Norma Booher, Recording Secretary
IN RE:
CITY COUNCIL CITY OF TUKWILA
Executive Session_ Employee Grievances
February 10, 1975
7 :30 o'clock P.M.
Tukwila City Hall
Tukwila, Washington
COUNCIL MEMBERS:
SKIP TRAYNOR, President
DWIGHT RDNER
JON STERLING
JOANNE DAVIS
CATHRYN HARRIS
DAN SAUL
ATTORNEYS PRESK&T:
LAWRENCE E. HARD, appearin' for and on behalf
of the Tukwila City Council;
WAYNE R. PARKER, appearing for and on behalf of
the City of Tukwila;
ALVA C. LONG, appearing for and on behalf of
four grievants.
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MR. TRAYNOR: The other item I have is the
Executive Session. What is the Council's pleasure
on that?
MRS. HARRIS: Mr. President, I move that we
go into Executive Session at this time,for the purpose
of Council conferring with Mr. Larry Hard, Council
attorney.
MR. TRAYNOR: I have a motion that council go
into executive session with the council and Mr. Hard.
MR. SAUL: Second.
MR. TRAYNOR: The motion has been seconded.
Is there any discussion?
MR. STERLING: Question.
MR. TRAYNOR: The question has been called for.
All in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed?
(The motion carried unanimously.)
MR. TRAYNOR: The Council will go into
Executive Session now. Please have the room cleared.
Merritt G. Dyer, Court Reporter
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MR. BAUCH: Before you go into executive session
or if you do go into executive session on the grievance,
will there be a chance for comment from the floor?
MR. TRAYNOR: When we come back I will have to
open up and say yes. I am not really sure at this time.
1 (The room was cleared of everyone
2 except the City Council and the
3 attorney Mr. Lawrence Hard.)
4 (Executive Session was held.)
5 (At the preferance of the grievants
6 an open meetin was held, as
7 opposed to an Executive Session.)
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9 MR. TRAYNOR: I will make that motion that the
10 meeting be declared back open, if it needs to be.
11 MR. SAUL: So moved.
12 MRS. HARRIS: Second.
13 MR. TRAYNOR: I have a motion and a second
14 to open the .meeting back up. Is there any discussion
15 on it?
16 MR. STERLING: Question.
17 MR. TRAYNOR: The question has been called for.
18 All those in favor signify by saying aye. All opposed?
19 (The motion passed unanimously.)
20 MR. TRAYNOR: Okay, I guess that the meeting
21 is open to hear the problems of those employees being
22 discriminated against. Who would like to start the
23 ball rolling?
24 MAYOR TODD: Mr. Chairman Traynor, it might
25 be well to understand that the intent of this meeting is
Merritt G. Dyer, Court Reporter
3
1 an appeal, or rather a recommendation from the Equal
2 Opportunities officer, yours truly, to the Council
3 suggesting a way to settle this grievance issue before
4 it goes further.
5 It ht be well for you, the Chairman, to read
6 my letter to the Council suggesting a way of settling this
7 thing.
8 MR. TRAYNOR: Do you have a copy with you, Frank?
9 I don't have my copy.
10 MR. TODD: I think there is one available.
11 MR. TRAYNOR: I have got one right here.
12 I'll read the letter of suggestion by Mr. Todd. This
13 is: Members of the City Council, dated January 29,
14 Grievance, City Clerk.
15 "In accord with procedural steps set out in
16 Section 6, sub paragraph b of Resolution #365, City of
17 Tukwila, and havin.e been fully aware of the conditions
18 causing the above mentioned grievance to be filed, I
19 recommend to the City Council that the case at issue could
20 and should be resolved as follows:
21 That the City Council amend the 1975 budget by rais.
22 ing the salaries of the grievants by 16.45 the same
23 average salary increase the Council allowed for other
24 'U.S.T.M.E.' employees.
25 This action would increase the individual
Merritt G. Dyer, Court Reporter
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1 grievants salaries as set forth below:"
2 Shirlee Kinney for 1974 was $1,090, and
3 suggested by the Mayor is $1,268. Doris Phelps 1974
4 is $752, su by the Mayor is $875 plus 15.
5 Shirley Kristofferson, 1974 was $769, suggested by the
6 Mayor was $895. Donna Charlton, 1 97'� was suggested
y �9�. 1974 $752, suggested
by the Mayor was $875. Respectfully submitted: Frank
8 Todd, Mayor -Equal Opportunity Officer.
9 Does anybody else wish to speak?
10 MR. LONG: My name is Alva Long and I have been
11 asked by the grievants to kind of oversee what is going
12 on. I hate to use the expression, "I wish to make this
13 perfectly clear," for fear that it relates back to
14 some rather tough times in democracy. But as I understand
15 what the Mayor is suggesting, is that he suggesting
16 a quick procedure of compromise. He is, in effect, asking
17 the grievants to compromise. He is asking everybody
18 to sit down and work it out, rather than to have the
19 recommendations go and to extend the procedure and the
20 cost and everything else. So as I understand what your
21 Mayor had in mind, it was just a wr.a.y of saying, "Okay,
22 here is my problem. This is what I see. These are the
23 findings that I have made. And why don't we get this
24 out of the way and go on to something, better as soon as
25 we can so that we don't increase expenses and so forth
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and just kind of take a look at the situation as to
what they are saying and what we can do." I think the
Mayor's suggestion was one of compromise.
I, however, feel that in the event 1 was
rather surprised to because I want to assure this
Council that 1 "Ain't mad at nobody." And I was unaware
that anybody else was mad at anybody else until I
kind of get the feeling that this has gotten out of
what it actually is into some other areas where I don't
think it belongs. And where I think it belongs is
just it is almost astraight accounting problem. There
were salary increases that were in various departments
and one department did not get them. Now, for whatever
reason, I am unaware of it and I don't think that that
i s really the concern. I think that :whatever reason the
Council used, of if they used any reason, this is
all irrelevant, because what actually came out,
regardless of I am assured or I would presume that
everybody was acting is in good faith and trying to
get together a workable budget and do the best they can
for all employees and so forth.
Sometimes it has been my experience that budgets
come out that do not comply with some laws that maybe
we would rather not have laying around, but, regretably,
there they are. And so I don't think by calling the
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parties grievants that anybody is saying that we are
"being, discriminated against." I don't think that
3 that is a proper word because invidious discrimination,
4 where somebody is picking on somebody, I don't think that
5 that is the case here. And I certainly don't want the
6 Council to feel that I, at least, feel that way. What
7 S do feel is that, as a technical -legal matter, the
8 budget may well discriminate as a matter of law. Now,
9 1 want it clearly understood that in the use of the
10 word "discriminate;' I am not saying "picked on" or
11 anything else. I am saying that there is a problem,
12 and that problem being that there was not the
13 proportionate raises of all. And that, in effect, is
14 not legal from my standpoint.
15 Now, if there is a disagreement, then there is
16 a disagreement. But I don't think that we should
17 use the word discrimination because I don't
18 thin.; anybody is mad at anybody, at least my clients
19 aren't mad at anybody. But it is just a straight
20 budgetary accounting procedure and I think it should
21 be left on that level.
22 And we just feel that if the Council the
23 Council has the power to settle it. I think the Council
24 is aware of the fact. I don't think we need hearings and
25 everything else. I think the budget speaks for itself,
Merritt G. Dyer, Court Reporter
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1 And that's all it is.
2 And the Mayor has made the suggestion that the
3 wages of the cler1s office be raised because the clerk's
4 office does have significant responsibilities, both
5 statutorally and administratively, as a matter of law
6 and as a matter of fact, particularly in this town
7 where many of the duties of the Mayor actually,
8 administratively, fall on the clerk's office.
9 And I don't know why well, if you had a full time
10 mayor, you wouldn't have this problem. But the clerk's
11 office did not get raised in proportion with all the
12 rest. And I think that that, as a matter of law,
13 that may well be discrimination. But 1 want to point
14 out by use of the word discrimination, I do not mean
15 that somebody is picking on somebody. I want that
16 clear that there is not, as far as I can see, not a
17 feeling, a hard feeling, not a political feeling, nothing
18 like that, but just as a matter of fact, as a factual
19 figure, that that, I think, is prohibited by law, and
20 that is all I am saying.
21 The Council can solve it if 'they wish to, or
22 I assume that they could say what would be the
23 procedure otherwise, Mr. Parker?
24 MR. PARKER: This procedurally is simply a
25 step outlined in the Resolutions adopted by this council
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1 in 1973. If the problem is not resolved by the Council
2 at this meeting the purpose of this meeting is to hear
3 the recommendation of the Equal Opportunities officer
4 if they do not follow that recommendation, then it will
5 go to the Board of Arbitration and the Board then will
6 decide it.
7 But this is a step that must be taken in that
8 process.
9 MR. LONG: As I would understand it, the
10 Council would have the power, if it so chose, to just
11 stop it right here and then it would go no further?
12 MR, PARKER: They could accept the recommendation
13 of the Equal Opportunities officer at this time or,
14 if they reject that recommendation, then it will go to
15 the Board of Arbitration.
16 MR. TRAYNOR: Mr. Long, I have a question.
17 You stated, I believe four times, in your little resume
18 here about violation of certain laws. Could you be
19 more specific? Which laws are we violating?
20 MR. LONG: Well, regretably and I have
21 faced this problem in other instances well, maybe
22 perhaps you remember the big flap about the University
23 of Washington and H.E.W. threatening to take away
24 all of its funding. They did that for two reasons:
25 One, they said, "You are not applying the Affirmative
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Action Standards that we have set by law, by federal
law." And, two, "You are discriminating in salary
scales," and so forth.
Now, the University of Washington completely
denied it. However, they did turn it around and work
it out with the Equal Opportunities officer of H.E.W.
and they settled it out. Otherwise the law requires
all federal funding to cut off. Now, this includes
much money, grant money, every phase of the whole
thing.
And we have a state eaual opportunity law
that requires the same type of equal treatment.
Now, sometimes it makes no sense, and I would be the first
to agree with this Council that I am aware of incidences
where it just makes no sense at all. However, that happens
to be the situation. And if it is found, under state
law again, to be discriminatory, then state funding
which I wouldn't imagine there is any, except maybe
the 2% liquor money, but you have to get rid of that
through a treatment program some place. And then there
is other monies that come from the state. I am not sure
about that. But all grant money, all match money,
and things like that, if there is a violation of either
state or federal and I am sure on the federal and
I am not too clear as to the state, as it would apply to
Merritt G. Dyer, Court Reporter
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Tukwila are cut off.
That is not our intention, my intention, at all.
That is a result that can happen, but it would have to
be initiated by the government and not by counsel
or the grievants. But what it does is that it gives
the right to the employees to equal treatment, using
those guidelines as guidelines, and then, in effect,
they are entitled to whatever the equality problem is,
either in promotional opportunities or in pay increases
and so forth. All of these have to be the same for
the whole employment group.
T don't know, does that respond sufficiently to
your question?
PAIR. TRAYNOR: I think so. It wasn't specific like
I really was more interested in but
MR, LONG: The specificity of it, if you ever
wanted to get into it, you would take about three weeks.
Because T am a member of the King County Alcoholism
Administrative Board and the Equal Opportunity officer
of the City of Seattle was yelling at Central Alcoholism
Agency and S.K.A.L.E (phonetic) out here and so forth about
the employment practices, in their practice of hiring,
their practice of promotion and their practice of equal
pay, particularly between men and women and then between
women and women. And if he chose to make a finding in
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1 that instance, because he was the Equal Opportunities
2 officer of the City of Seattle, then all federal grant
3 money would dry up, as a matter of fact, right then
4 for that area.
5 It is a complex series of laws, is what I am
6 saying, and anybody that clearly understands all of them
7 is either a genius or he is insane.
8 MRS. HARRIS: Mr. Long, are you able to cite
9 the actual number or the act of any federal law which
10 would apply to this situation? You know, law number?
11 MR. LONG: Right now?
12 MRS. HARRIS: Yes.
13 MR. LONG: Not right now. I could go get it,
14 but I don't understand the relevancy of it because we
15 wouldn't initiate that. Or do you still feel I am
16 threatening you, Mrs. Harris?
17 MRS. HARRIS: In a sense, yes. But when you
18 mentioned federal laws
19 MR. LONG: I haven't threatened anybody lately.
20 My probation officer does not permit it.
21 MRS. HARRIS: But when you mentioned federal laws
22 it would be helpful to us if we could have them cited
23 so that we could look at them.
24 MR. LONG: You are not aware of them?
25 MRS. HARRIS: At this time apparently not.
Merritt G. Dyer, Court Reporter
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MLR. LONG: I mean either you are or you aren't.
I was wondering whether or not you are testing me to see
whether or not I have the
MRS. HARRIS: I can't cite any either. I
don't know any numbers myself.
MR. LONG: Do you know that they exist?
MRS. HARRIS: I am aware that there are certain
rules and regulations in this regard, yes, but I do not
know the actual citations.
MR. LONG: If you want me to supply you the
federal statutes involved in this, the Equal
Opportunities Act of the United States, well, I would be
glad to. I can probably find it out tomorrow morning
by a phone call and forward it to you. Or anybody
in the Prosecutor's office on the civil side has
them. They have to work with them all the time And I
think the County Counsel would be pretty aware of them
also because they have to deal with them all the time.
MRS. HARRIS: When you mentioned the Federal
Revenue Sharing Act, Mr. Long, is there a specific
section in that Act which would apply in this case?
MR. LONG: A specific section?
MRS. HARRIS: Yes, in the law, that says that
if a city is discriminatory regarding any of the other
federal laws on Equal Opportunity matters, then the
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1 .federal revenue sharing moneys shall be dropped.
2 MR. LONG: It's available, Mrs. Harris. But,
3 you see, where you are not reading what I am saying is
4 that the only thing that I have said is that this is
5 something that is not initiated by grievants,
6 that the laws require the equalness that I indicated,
7 and then these laws, plus your city ordinance, gives
8 certain procedural steps.
9 The only thing that I an saying is that in the
10 event we go- go- go- go -go, you know, on this thing, and
11 let's suppose that the Suva rior Court judge, at some
12 point or another, said, "Fine, I agree with the
13 grievants. I disagree with the City of Tukwila."
14 Therefore, the City of Tukwila was ordered to pay
15 certain amounts of money. Now, that process does not
16 envoke the federal things go on. The only thing I am
17 saying Is that these federal laws can, by their own
18 initiation, come in and say because they have
19 compliance officers that run around in the dirgalweeds
20 and they look at various situations. And if the
21 compliance officer and I think, we are in zone 9 here
22 in the King County area, I couldn't be too sure on that
23 but they have a zone 9 compliance officer. And when they
24 smell something happening they run around and they see,
25 "Well, now, is it?" And then you get into this type of
Merritt G. Dyer, Court Reporter
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thing which involves a whole set of appeals through the
federal government, which is way on and beyond and
what we are saying, and this is way on and beyond
what we are talking about.
The only thing that I was doing is that I was
making the Council aware that there are such laws that
require the leveling of salary increases among all
personnel. Like you can't do it like this and that,
regardless of what the intent of the Council might
have been or regardless of the justification that would
be independent of Counciamatic consideration. But,
you see, that is way on and beyond and it is almost
well, at this point in time it is certainly not involved
in the deliberation.
The only thing I am saying is that part of the
Equal Opportunities legislation of the United States,
and part of it in the State of Washington, has other
than the rights of the employee action, it has sanctions
that go way over and beyond what the employee can or
cannot do.
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And I kind of read you at the last meeting,
Mrs. Harris, of saying that somehow or another I am
threatening. No, I am not. I am saying that this
is something that is part of the law that requires
equality of treatment. But we can't do anything about
Merritt G. Dyer, Court Reporter
that, but we should be concerned, in the back of our
head, that this law is not envoked not by us but by
some compliance officer.
MRS. HARRIS: Mr. Long, I can appreciate all of
what you have said. But since the subject has been
brought up
MR. LONG: You have brought it up.
MRS. HARRIS: We did not bring up the possibility
of leaving federal funds, should there be an actual
discrimination in accordance with the terms of the
Equal Opportunities Act. But, if there is, for example,
under the 1972 federal revenue sharing act, a cause which
states that a governmental jurisdiction shall lose
that funding if there is an act of discrimination,
it has a section and a paragraph and so forth, title,
names, And the comp" lance officers under the various
statutes do not investigate unless they are given
authority in the enacting law to do so.
MR. LONG: You have a great deal more trust in
the United States Government than do I. You may have
been involved with the government more than I have.
But the way they do things is that you could read one
law and all by itself it doesn't say a darn thing, but
it refers to another law, and by the time you follow that
whole thing you might as well start with the Equal
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1 Opportunity Act itself and then see how that goes into
2 the revenue sharing act because they are all locked
3 together. But they are not locked together with the
4 specificity that you are asking me to give you. I mean
5 this is my judgment, this is My best guesstimate. And
6 soy what I am suggesting that you might be doing would
7 be instead of asking me a simple question, which I wish
8 you were asking me, and I would wish that I could answer
9 it as simply as it is asked. However, Congress has
10 had a habit for a long period of time to take the
11 simplest of propositions in law and quadruple them
12 in size and interface them with references to others,
13 and by the time you get through this whole warp n woof,
14 your question requires a 30 page brief.
15 MRS, HARRIS: But there is specific reference
16 somewhere in the law?
17 MR. LONG: Yes, you can fol�.ciw it all the way
18 through. Perhaps your attorney could too. Maybe you
19 could share the tortuous path down the canyons of
20 federal bureaucracy together.
21 MR. TRAYNOR: Any more questions of Mr. Long
22 from the Council table?
23 MR. ,STERLING: Mr. Long, have you had an
24 opportunity to scrutinize our budget?
25 MR. LONG: I have scrutinized it as much as I
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1 would scrutinize budgets.
2 MR. STERLING: I wanted to know if you had an
3 opportunity to look it over.
4 MR. LONG: Yes.
5 MR. STERLING: In regard to the Equal Opportunity
6 Act itself, do you feel there is any specific point
7 that our budget violates within that Act?
8 MR. LONG: Well, you, in essence, are asking
9 me the same question that Mrs. Harris is asking, but
10 quite on the other side. The only thing I am saying
11 is that there is a possibility. I think your city
12 attorney pointed some of that out in one of his letters.
13 MR. STERLING: Do you agree with that letter?
14 NR. LONG: Mr.. Sterling, I don't share the
15 expertise of your city attorney. However, I would
16 be very concerned. It is a litt .e difficult to say
17 black white, but let's say that I tend to agree wits:
18 the analysis of the city attorney and I tend to agree
19 that there is a possibility of vulnerability. Now,
20 that is not pinning me down to the floor shoulder to
21 shoulder, because ever since my father became a judge
22 in 1932 I have been unwilling to guess what any judge
23 is going to say at any given time.
24 MR. S`.L RLING: I can well understand that.
25 Thank you, Mr. Long.
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1 MR. TRAYNOR: Anybody else from the Council
2 table?
3 MRS. DAVIS: Mr. Long, you did look at the
4 salaries of the clerks and everything and you have
5 looked at this?
6 MR. LONG: Yes, I have a copy of that.
7 MRS. DAVIS: And you did say that this is a
8 compromise?
9 MR. LONG: I did not say that that was compromised.
10 I said that I thought the Mayor ww seeking a compromise.
11 And by seeking a compromise, I thought the Mayor was
12 speaking in terms of procedure. I was thinking that
13 the Mayor would say, "Let's settle this at the very
14 earliest opportunity. Let's come to an agreement if it
15 is at all possible. Let's get into a position where
16 we are doing something. I don't know, this was the
17 Mayor's recommendation. I have every confidence in the
18 world that the Mayor was trying to by pass a long
19 series of problems and bring this matter to the attention
20 of the City Council at the earliest opportunity possible
21 under all these circumstances so that everybody knows
22 where everybody is, and perhaps to work it out before it
23 goes much further and causes possible problems in
24 morale or personnel administration and so forth. I think
25 that is, by the word compromise, is what I am saying.
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Now, as far as the figures are concerned,
I would make no comment as to whether or not that is
a figure of compromise or whether that is a maximum or
a minimum or whatnot. But I don't wish to indicate
that the figures, as far as I am concerned, was a
compromise in the sense that the clerks are demanding
one figure and that this is a lower or a higher or a
whatnot figure and this is an offer of a compromise in
that area. I don't refer to the words compromise in
that sense.
MRS. DAVIS: I see.
NR. LONG: Get it in front of the City Council.
Perhaps the City Council would be willing to make a
decision and to save everybody a lot of hassle
and go away and go on to better things.
MARYOR TODD: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could
explain in some greater detail my position as I set
forth in my letter. If you have before your your
resolution 365, which was passed as Mr. Parker said
on the 20th of August, 1973, on the first page under
20
Section 1, sub paragraph c. The purpose of this
resolution was, among other things to "Promote
an atmosphere of fair treatment and non- .discrimination
within city government."
You are all aware the used to be employees the
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four grievants being members of that group -1 not
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under a formal union contract. And in researching the
1975 budget to determine what the average level of
increase was to the employees other than these four,
it amounted to the percentage rate that I set forth
in my letter. It was my opinion, and still is, that
this, were it granted, would in fact follow Resolution
8 365 in promoting an atmosphere of fair treatment.
9 MR. STERLING: Mr. Mayor, do you feel that
10 the 1975 budget violates the wording of Resolution 365
11 page 1, section 1, paragraph c?
12 MR. TODD: Yes, I am afraid I would have to answer
13 in the affirmative.
14 MR. TRAYNOR: Anyone else at the Council table?
15 ERS, HARRIS: Could it please be pointed out to
16 the Council precisely how it is felt that there has been
17 a violation of this equal opportunities provision with
18 the City? We have, of course, the copies of the ladies'
19 complaints, but how do these iri ividual complaints fall
20 within or how do they compare to section thus and such
21 of whatever as being an actual act of discrimination?
22 I think this is what is alleged here basically and
23 that the Council treated unfairly with regard to salaries
24 of these ladies in regard to the budget. So how does
25 any one of these points actually violate paragraph so,
1 paragraph so of such and such because A. in the
2 complaint or B. in the complaint? I am asking for someone
3 to draw me pictures in other words.
4 MR. TRAYNOR: Who would like to take that on?
5 Mr. Long, would you like to take that one on?
6 MR. LONG: I happen to be a lousy artist and
7 I don't think that she is really asking that. Where
8 I get my problem is that I keep hearing the words
9 back: treated unfairly, discrimination and so forth,
10 and I am not talking about that.
11 It is almost like an accounting type procedure,
12 just as cold as that Now, if you start talking in those
13 terms, why, then I think it makes sense. It is not,
14 I think, productive to talk in terms of how I read you.
15 Perhaps, Mrs. Harris, I am reading you wrong. Perhaps
16 you don't read me, which is also possible. But this
17 isn't a it is almost like you are saying: "I want
18 you to point out how the City Council is treating somebody
19 unfairly." That is an entirely different ball park.
20 I would say that people are treated unfairly by giving
21 them duties beyond their capacity or duties below
22 their capacity or something like that.
23 What I am talking about is an accounting procedure:
24 that there were no raises in this o..ce and there were
25 in all others, as set forth in the grievances. So the
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grievances speak for themselves and I think that the
grievances answer your question. And It is a matter of
budgetary accounting and it is a matter of job
description and so forth in the comparison of the
in_house comparisons.
Now, I would have no problem at all if the City
Council of the City of Tukwila said, We are not going
to raise anybody's salary." That is perfectly okay.
Or if the City Council said, "We are going to reduce
everybody 10 per cent." Perfectly okay. If they
said, "We are going to raise everybody 10 per cent except-
then I think that under your ordinance, under the others,
you have a problem. And this is the only thing I
am saying,
MRS. HARRIS: Mr. Long, does this position that
you just stated actually, in fact, in black and white
is it contrary to a certain specified lam or has it been
interpreted in courts or what? There has got to be some
background or something. We are operating in the dark.
M.R. LONG: I presume you have read the ordinance,
Mrs. Harris.
MRS. HARRIS: You know, the first time I read it
was January 12th of this year. It was not provided.
MR. LONG: Do you need a copy? I can furnish you
a copy.
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MRS. HARRIS: I have a copy of it now. Our
resolution, the City's resolution, yes.
MR. LONG: Don't the grievances set forth
section and verse?
MRS. HARRIS: The resolution well, of course,
you have read it too, Mr. Long but what I am looking
for is specifics, you know, this particular section of
one of the letters violates this. Or there are court
cases that says some other agency has violated something
specifically.
MR. LONG: Mrs. Harris, you are going to insist
on me doing some legal work and I try to avoid that
assiduously, particularly when you have two city
attorneys rather than one and I I:;ould rather say
Section 3B:
Assure that pay and fringe
benefits depend upon job responsibilities and, along
with overtime work, are administered on a non-discriminator�
basis." What the ordinance from all four corners covers
is equality that's all it says evenhanded.
I might point out, Mrs. Harris, that in my
conference with my clients, they all denied that they
are women. So we are not discriminating on the basis
that they are women.
MRa HARRIS: Oh, but Mr. Long, it says so in
the statements. That is part of the statements.
Merritt G. Dyer, Court Reporter
24
1 MR. LONG: Well, maybe they are denying that they
2 are worre n in terms of how I define women.
3 MR. TRAYNOR: Mrs. Harris, de you have anything
4 else you would like to ask at this time?
5 MRS. HARRIS: No.
6 MR. TRAYNOR: Does anybody else have anything
7 they would like to say on this subject? How about
8 the Council?
9 MR. STERLING: Orly, Mr. Chairman, that 1 would
10 welcome any employee that feels, under this equal
11 opportunities law, that they have been discriminated
12 by our budget, if they would come and actually shoe;
13 where they have been actually discriminated against
14 according to the equal opportunities la.,.
15 MR. LONG: All the data is there.
16 MR. STERLING: We are asking and we are not
17 really getting any specifics where a person is really
18 discriminated against. That is all we want to know.
19 MR. TODD: May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman?
20 We have a public employees strike at the present time
21 in King County. One member of the Council is carrying
22 a picket sign. Would he feel discriminated against if
23 all other employees, other than he and three other
24 people that Spellman didn't like perhaps, not get a
25 raise, would he feel discriminated against? I feel this
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is a precisely paralleling case,
MR. STERLING: Would you explain that one more
3 time?
4 MR. TODD: No, I explained it.
5 MR. STERLING: I didn't quite get your point.
6 MR. TODD: Jon, we have a member of the Council
7 that is presently on strike with the County. Would that
8 Council member, if everybody else, all of his compatriots
9 in the union, got a raise and he didn't, would he feel
10 discriminated against?
11 MR, STERLING: Under the basis of the 1975 budget?
12 Is that what you are our budget?
13 MR. TODD: On any basis.
14 MR. STERLING: I don't see a. relativity.
15 N TODD: I will withdraw the question then,
16 because it is pointle to talk to you about it.
17 MR. LONG: Mr. Sterling,, I don't think we are
18 communicating. At least it is my fault because I don't
19 understand your questions. It seems to me that the
20 grievances say, "Everybody got a raise but us." This is
21 how I understand the grievance. And then you are saying,
22 "What do you mean "I'm saying everybody got a raise
23 but us." And then you are saying, "But that doesn't tell
24 me anything." I say, "Yes, it does. It says that the
25 only thing that happened is that everybody got a raise but
Merritt G. Dyer, Court Reporter
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1 us. And this dialogue can go back and forth as long
2 as we want to keep it going back and forth. And so
3 all of the public employees can get up and say, "Everybody
4 got a raise but us." This is set forth in the grievance
5 itself and I think that that is the issue.
6 NR. STERLING: Thank you for putting words in
7 my mouth, Mr. Long. But what I am asking for, according
8 to the wording of the equal opportunity law and
9 Resolution 365?
10 MB. LONG: Do you think you could do that?
11 MR. STERLING: According to the wording of
12 those I would like to find out where we have violated
13 their equal opportunity rights,
14 MR. LONG: Well, first of all, if you raise
15 every department in the City but one, we can expect
16 that you are raisin- every department in the City but
17 one, okay?
18 MR. STERLING: Yes.
19 MR, LONG: Then you are treating every other
20 department differently than this one. Would that be
21 a fair statement?
22 MB. STERLING: Go ahead and say whatever you want,
23 Mr. Long.
24 Pte;. LONG: Then you are saying that there is
25 no place in your equal opportunity act that says you can't
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do that. Is that what you are saying?
MR. STERLING: Where in the equal opportunity law
does it effect salaries?
MR. PAPER: Section 3 sub section b.
MR. LONG: Which I cited to Mrs. Harris.
Phi.. TRAYNOR: I have a point I would like to
make right here. I have heard Nr. Long say it several
times, but there is one other department that did not
get raise increases.
MR. SAUL: Two other departments.
MR. TRAYNOR: Well, one I have got specifically
in mind because it is kind of
MR. LONG: Is that a division or a department?
fv. TRAYNOR: Well, it is the recreation part
of the Public Works,
11R. LONG: In other words it is a division of
the Public Works Department?
MR. TRAYNOR: Just like the accounting is part
of the City Clerks office.
MR. LONG: And they have a part time employee
that didn't get a raise?
Pte. TRAYNOR: No, it wasn't that. Also the
supervisor didn't get a raise.
MR. LONG: I don't represent him. He might have
a point.
Merritt G. Dyer, Court Reporter
•;Q
1 MR. TRAYNOR: 1 know it, but T just wanted to
2 make it clear because you have said it several times that
3 this is the only one.
4 MR. LONG: Then please understand my definition
5 of department is like the .Departeriit of Public `forks,
6 the Clerk's Department, the Treas .,Irer's Department,
7 the Police Department, the Fire Department. That is
8 the way I use it, so pardon the semantic difference.
9 MR. TRAYNOR: Is there any more discussion on
10 this subject? There seems to be no more discussion from
11 the table. I will make a motion that this grievance
12 continue on the process as provided it Resoiutiorw
13 and 365. I will put that into a ;notion.
14 NR. SAUL: tiecond,
15 1!n. TRYNOE: i will restate that the met
16 was r the L•r'j :y t"" T fL, the Procedure
v.o,ti� i C 4he �'o,nt to CC�r1�lt_ C
17 Resolutions �6Li- and 365.
18 as outlined _.r: =::sue
18 Do 1 have a second?
19 R. SAUL: S=econd.
20 MR. TRAYNOR: Is there anj more discussion on it?
21 MR. STERLING: Question.
22 MR. TRAYNOR: The question has been called for.
23 All those in favor si gnify by sa :ring aye. All opposed
24 by no,
25 (The motion carried unanimously.)
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MR. TRAYNOR: That takes care of the subject
of ajenda.
MR. LONG: May I ask a point of information?
4 What does that mean? Does that mean that you are
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MR. TRAvNOR: We will continue on with the
process as provided by the resolution, which is to o on
to the arbitration.
MR. LONG: What 1 am interested in is getting
9 this thing out of the way quickly as possible and
10 I am sure that the City Council is too. So whose job
11 would it be to set up the procedural gteos?
12 MR. PARKER: It is up to the Equal Opportunity
13 officer to appoint a board and n2fer the matte— ao;1
14 to the board.
15 LONG:
16 MRS. HARRIS: Hr. Chair h:fore eGntlaue
17 the a items, doei counsei wish :o consult with
18 our special counsel SO he could leave eariy
19 wante d to?
20 R. SAUL: Just :jet him leave.
MR. STERLING: If anybody feels n need of
22 discussion with counsel, then we c:),n back into an
23 executive session.
24 MR, 7 1LtYNOR: I, for one, havo no reason to.
25 MR, TODD: Kr. Chairman, may I Incuire before you
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adjourn as to what arrangements you have made with the
obvious counsel for the council as far as salary and
ray?
I think tt should be made part of che public
record since he is appearing for the first time to my
knol;leds:e.
MR. STIRLING: I would say the procedure
would be that he would be paid out of the budget
amounts that we have budgeted for legal services.
KR. TODD: I am interested in knowing whether
the whole Council has had an opportunity to vote
on this decision and what his salary will be.
MR. STE3R1 Is there anybody on the Council
that doesn't go alon: v,5th that?
ER3. HARRIS: This Ps voted upon by the
Counc il at the last regular meeting to enga thT se-ions
of this filTh
MR. That is true, howeve, the st
falls far shoft of the answe- T expected to receio.
It is my recollection that three members of the Council
voted to incur this indebtedness, and I am still asking'
as
to what the amount of the retainer Is or what fee?
MRS. HARRIS: I don't think that is particularly
relevant to the agenda tonight.
MR. TODD: I think it is very relevant.
Merritt G. Dyer, Court Reporter
MRS. HARRIS: It was discussed at our last
2 regular meeting and voted upon by the majority of the
3 quorum oresent. This firm does have fluctuating fee
4 for its cervices, depending on which attorney is handling
5 the particular case at hand. So it nay fluctuate.
6 NR. TODD: I might also inquire, Mr. Chairman,
7 as to who, representing the Council, interviewed this
8 firm and decided upon its emplwree?
9 MR. l'HAYNOR: T believe, Kr. Mayor, that this
10 was a recommendation which cameb-3fore the Council
11 sometime back, what these people voted on In the Council,
12 as to use them for representatives. 1 don't remember
13 specifically which meeting, but it was since the first
14 of the year.
15 MR. TODD: I am also interested in learning
16 from the CounciJ wheth or hot _;7 interviewed the
17 City Attorney of record and did they get his approval for
18 the engagement of this particulariqw firm, now
19 apparently employed by the Council?
20 Mn. HARRIS: Mr. President, 1 would like to
21 ask what the Mayor's purpose is in this line of
22 questioning?
23 MR. TODD: I am speaking as a private citizen
24 and taxpayer and it is my right to know and I expect
25 an answer.
Merritt G. Dyer, Court Reporter
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1 MRS. HARRIS: 1 feel that you are trying to
2 back Council up against the wall, Mr. Mayor.
3 MR. TODD: You are already very close to the wall,
4 Mrs. Harris.
5 MRS. HARRIS: This has been discussed in
6 the public meetings before. T think_ :It 1 just
7 think it is a little bit inappropriate right at this
8 moment,
9 MR. TODD: 1 think it is fair for the taxpayers
10 and the person asking the question, representing himself
11 as a taxpayer, that the record should show the answers
12 to the questions I have asked have been short, inconclusive
13 and 1 have been given the "treatment."
14 MR. TRAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. Flavor.
15 MR. HARTONG: I am a private citizen, _I haven't
16 been here for, oh, probably 2 months now and I still
17 see the vindictiveness, or whatever .-on want to call. it,
18 on both sides, Mayor Todd, as well as the Council, right
19 today. 1 don't know what this grievance is, all 1 see
20 is in the paper, it is a discriminatory charge brought
21 against the Council or City or whoever it is brow ht
22 against. So I would like to have that show as a record
23 too.
24 And I am a taxpayer also, And 1 see the certain
25 people who were, let's say I have to use the word
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1 recall I see the same person argumentative towards
2 that one or this one, back and forth, vice versa. I
3 am beginning to wonder why. 1 don't know why, but I am
4 just beginning to wonder why we can't have a city out
5 here and run it without all this hassling back and forth
6 and nobody gets nothing done.
7 I am not paying much tax in this town according
8 to Frank or J. C. Penney's, but 1 don't get a damn
9 thing done. 1 haven't had nothing done by this city
10 down there, or damn little up here. And 1 think it is
11 about time that we get down to getting some tax money
12 out to the t?xpayere where it helon e and p;et the streets
13 fixed the s mowed, trees planted and thins re
ix d up, the grass .�n li
14 this. Now, that is all 1 can see and I for one an
15 getting damn tired of it.
16 1 have tried to stay out of this, but, oh sure,
17 you �t keep out of nothing. But 1 haven't showed up
ou can keep
18 here for two or three months becauce for this one reason,
19 because there is nothing up here other than this hasslin.M
20 tonight, I mean this discriminatory here. This girl is
21 already making about two and one -hal" thousand more
22 a year than anybody I know of in the same position
23 Boeing Aircraft. So, 1 mean, some place it has got to
24 stop. I mean I am a taxpayer also,
25 I am not piddling you down, Shirlep, at all. It
Merritt G. Dyer, Court Reporter
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1 is a position.
2 Also the department heads. I would be glad to
3 make $15,000 a year by myself, anti I work 1 16 hours
4 a day to make ten. So some place it has got to stop
5 and we might as well stop here and maybe it will work
6 on up, I don't know. But I don't have that kind of money
7 to throw around for fifteen or sixteen thousand dollar
8 salaries for department heads and lawn mowers and
9 street sweepers and everything else.
10 Now, I have a little investment and d we put
11 in 16 hours a day and I don't have that kind of money
12 so I don't see why the hell we should be paying out of
13 our pockets for these people to live, all the time, one
14 after the other. `_!hat's all 1 hale rot to say,
15 MR, TRAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. Hartong.
16 If there is no more discu o n this, we
T•; i l l
17 go on to the other a dw I have. Unless there is some
18 more?
19 MRS. DAVIS: I would like to be excused. But
20 I would like to point out that the court reporter should
21 not come out of the Council's fun 'Os. They should know,
22 the clerks, that this should be assar:led by them and not
23 by us.
24 MR. TRAYNOR: Is there any more on this subject?
25 If not we will go on to the other agenda items.
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C E R T I F I C A T E
I, Diane Attleson, hereby certify that I am a
4 qualified and experienced shorthand reporter; that I reported in
5 shorthand the hearing in the above entitled case, held on
6 February 10, 1975, before the Tukwila City Council; that I
7 subsequently caused my said shorthand notes to be reduced to
8 typewriting; and that the foregoing and hereto attached 35 pages
9 of typewritten matter, numbered from 1 to 35, inclusive, con__
10 stitute a full, true, and accurate transcript of the questions
11 asked, answers given, and other oral proceedings had at
12 said hearing, so taken by me in shorthand as aforesaid, and
13 of the whole thereof.
14 Dated at Seattle, Washington, this I":th day of
15 February, 1975.
16
17 A .J \r‘-.S...' •h_ 06 r: :ice: r A,s
Reporter,
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